Buddha Reloaded

Ok, but there is a fundamental difference between Universalism, which is a pantheistic approach, and Buddhism. Pantheism: the doctrine or belief that God is the universe and its phenomena (taken or conceived of as a whole) or the doctrine that regards the universe as a manifestation of God

Buddhism: there is no creator God.

To lump the two together is a big mistake.

Thanks Darren for your thoughtful comment. If I may add, Universalism is not necessarily theistic, let alone pantheistic. On the other hand, Buddha kept silence in regards to "God", so it's wrong to define Buddhism as atheist per se. But even if we said that Buddhism is atheistic in regards to a "Creator", still the Dharmakaya is the ultimate truth of reality and its whole. That kind of all pervasive non dual Principle may perfectly be the one that is meant from Universalism if this one does not point to a "Creator" either.
With Maitri,
C l a r a L l u m, Sensei

Well, I didn't mention atheism. I think we'd have to define the terms if we're going to talk about that. It is absolutely correct to say that Buddhism, without going beyond the Four Noble Truths, however, refutes the possibility of a Creator God.

That said, while there are god realms in Buddhism, there is nothing what so ever in Buddhist logic that even allows for the existence of an all pervasive creator. Thinking karma though arrives at this point. But of course we have to get there with our own practice. The Buddha didn't directly say, "Hey there's no god all you Brahmins," but he laid out the universal principles of his realization and asked the practitioners at that time to look at their own minds to see if it was true.

Non-dual principle, rigpa, Dharmakaya, Dhamadatu and so on are not, in any sense, anything like a creator God. And I think it's a subtle enough point that if Buddhist teachers aren't clear about it, it leaves students thinking that Buddhism and Christianity, be it metaphysical or conventional, are the same thing. They are not.

-d

Darren Littlejohn
the 12-Step Buddhist
http://the12stepbuddhist.com

Dear Dharma friend, apparently I have not explained clear enough myself. I am not saying that Dharmakaya implies or equals a God-Creator. I said that Universalism does not necessarily points to a Creator, which is precisely the contrary. And I meant that Buddhism, while not supporting the notion of a God-Creator (which does not), actually points to the ultimate Truth as an all pervasive principle (a la pantheism, but without a Creator), which, said principle, can perfectly relate to a non-theistic (non Creator) view within Universalism. Again, no God-entity implied anywhere in what I said.
Gassho.

By the way, my post is about UU, i.e. Unitarianism & Universalism, not about Christianity, conventional or not.
Maitri thoughts again.

Hi,
I think that the points need precise clarification.

Please explain the following:
What is Universalism? Who are the orginators and what is their doctrine? Are you talking about Helena Blavatsky?

What is Dharmakaya and what is it's place in Universalism?

Finally, what is the difference in One Mind vs. Dharmakaya?

-d

Darren Littlejohn
the 12-Step Buddhist
http://the12stepbuddhist.com

Hi,

Please then also clarify the differences between Unitarian, Universalist and Christianity.

-d

Darren Littlejohn
the 12-Step Buddhist
http://the12stepbuddhist.com

Hello Darren, thanks again for your comments.

Unitarian Universalism is a religious fellowship of explorers of the truth with roots in Christianity but now not subscribing to any particular faith. Among its members you may find believers or practitioners of any religion as well as agnostics and atheists. The present UU movement is a conjunction of two formerly separated churches, the Unitarian and the Universalist.
In brief, the origins of the UU congregations are Christian but the present is not. Unitarian Universalism is about principles and values (ethics) not about beliefs or creeds (metaphysics), but leaves these ones to the individual's discernment.

There's no relation at all between Blavatsky and Unitarian Universalism. Blavatsky originated Theosophy.

There's no concept of Dharmakaya in Universalism that I know. It's my occurrence to relate them both, since as I said before Universalism comes from a tradition of believers in inherent goodness of man and universal salvation. I relate that to the Buddhist Mahayana doctrine of buddha-nature, which points to one's original perfection and potential to realize truth and freedom, also to the Mahayana doctrine that affirms that such realization will happen eventually to all. This doctrine is supported by the ultimate truth of Dharmakaya pervading all.

To answer your last question I may need your clarification about One Mind. In what context you find this one concept mentioned?

Thank you.
Gassho

Hi,

Well, when you make statements like, "The Dharmadhatu embraces all," that sounds to me like you're talking about a being. Is the Dharmadahtu a being? A universal intelligence? A God? Is that what you're saying? Because even though the Universalists may have moved away from traditional Christian roots, I think they're still NOT talking about the same thing that Buddhism is talking about. In Buddhism, we don't strive to become Gods or enter into the pearly gates or even to get on the Buddha's good side.

One Mind is the idea that we're all leaves on the same tree. Whatever you call the tree doesn't matter because we're all using different words for the same thing. We are all ONE. We're part of this universe that this one source made, controls and makes decisions about the fate of. And if we obey the laws that this ONE being made, then He (usually He) might allow us to participate in His special place called Heaven. Then what is Heaven? A different discussion is required for that.

I think there are more direct correlations between the spiritualists of turn of the century America and the Mind Cure movements such as Science of Mind, of which Universalists have been part of this development than you've given credit to. It may be an overstatement to say that there is no relation at all. But your point is taken.

That said, the point really is that Universalism is NOT Buddhism. There may be correlations, shared values, even common practices. But the question is: what is at the core? The teachings on and realization of Dharmakaya are definitely not what the Christians, Christian offshoots, pseudo-Christians, Neo-Christians, Pagans, New Agers, Spiritualists understand to be ultimate reality. Far from it.

If we take a mash-up of different religions and practices, how committed are we to really realizing the fruits of any of them? To really understand fully, we need to practice fully and apply the methods and teachings to see what they yield. Otherwise, we can wind up with a dull blend of tasteless mumbo-jumbo soup.

Ruben Habito, Zen teacher and former Catholic priest, told us once, "If you're here to add another notch to your spiritual tool belt, you've come to the wrong place." Lonchenpa said, "To know one is to know all." But if we take a little from here and a bit from there, it gets kind of wishy-washy.

I know of no Buddist teaching which supports that, "Mahayana doctrine that affirms that such realization will happen eventually to all. " Conversely, we are either on the path or we are suffering in an endless cycle of birth and death. We are all destined to repeat our suffering in samsara unless we understand a few things. That, after all, is the purpose of a Buddha coming here to tell us how it is.

-d

Darren Littlejohn
the 12-Step Buddhist
http://the12stepbuddhist.com

|| Well, when you make statements like, "The Dharmadhatu embraces all," that sounds to me like you're talking about a being. Is the Dharmadahtu a being? A universal intelligence? A God? Is that what you're saying?||

Hi Darren, you seem learned enough about Buddhism to investigate Dharmakaya or nirvana without me pointing to it through more words. And, again, no, "God" is not what I am saying, however "all pervading" may sound.

||Because even though the Universalists may have moved away from traditional Christian roots, I think they're still NOT talking about the same thing that Buddhism is talking about.||

As I said before, Universalists do not have creeds or beliefs, so they are not talking of anything pro or against any Buddhist tenets. They are spiritual explorers and have faith in the inherent goodness and potential of beings. It may sound familiar to you as a Buddhist.

The whole correlation is the substance of my post, that may inspire some reader or may not. I am not talking Science or Maths here, but pointing to something that transcends and that can only be realized within. If my words rings a bell, good, if not, good also. There's many other pointers along the path that may work for the reader if not this little one.

||In Buddhism, we don't strive to become Gods||

I wonder how could one become their own creator anyway, from the point of view of strict logic. So, obviously, nobody is striving to become God, Buddhist, Christian or Unitarian Universalist.

||One Mind is the idea that we're all leaves on the same tree. Whatever you call the tree doesn't matter because we're all using different words for the same thing. We are all ONE.||

In Buddhism this is taught as interdependence, as I'm sure you know, rather than oneness. Precisely because the notion of one or oneness points to a single entity, a view that is not Buddhist. Instead, Buddhism teaches emptiness (or absence of intrinsic existence) as the ultimate truth of all dharmas that appear interdependently. Phenomena is therefore penetrated by emptiness and not but a substantial oneness.

||We're part of this universe that this one source made, controls and makes decisions about the fate of. And if we obey the laws that this ONE being made, then He (usually He) might allow us to participate in His special place called Heaven. Then what is Heaven? A different discussion is required for that.||

This part of your comment seems to strongly support theism (belief in a supreme entity or creator). Or maybe is that you are using irony.

||I think there are more direct correlations between the spiritualists of turn of the century America and the Mind Cure movements such as Science of Mind, of which Universalists have been part of this development than you've given credit to.||

Emerson, the founder of Transcendentalism, was heavily influenced by the Eastern traditions. His father was a Unitarian minister and he's a very regarded figure for UU fellows. In consequence, I agree that Unitarian Universalism was also very much formed under the light of the New Thought movement in conjunction with Transcendentalism and the religions of the East.

||But your point is taken. ||

I'm glad.

||That said, the point really is that Universalism is NOT Buddhism.||

Of course is not.

||There may be correlations, shared values, even common practices.||

That may inspire UU folks to research Buddhadharma.
Which was my whole point.

||But the question is: what is at the core? The teachings on and realization of Dharmakaya are definitely not what the Christians, Christian offshoots, pseudo-Christians, Neo-Christians, Pagans, New Agers, Spiritualists understand to be ultimate reality. Far from it.||

Of course they are not.
However, interfaith dialogue helps immensely to guide humans to world peace and to individual spiritual research. Again, that was my point.

||If we take a mash-up of different religions and practices, how committed are we to really realizing the fruits of any of them? To really understand fully, we need to practice fully and apply the methods and teachings to see what they yield. Otherwise, we can wind up with a dull blend of tasteless mumbo-jumbo soup.||

Interfaith is not mumbo-jumbo or thoughtless mixing or mashing up. I invite you to open your mind and heart to dialogue and research. While I congratulate you and rejoice for your achievements as a counselor using Dharma tools.

I agree with Habito Roshi and Kyabje Lonchenpa.

I leave the last point of your reply to your resources, to investigate.

With love.

Thank you. Fun conversing with you.

-d

Darren Littlejohn
the 12-Step Buddhist
http://the12stepbuddhist.com